Tara's and Jon's posts on Trev's question are both better than this is going to be, thus the title.
Jon and Chris might be right that I'm oversimplifying when I say postmodernism and Christianity are like oil and water. If Tara wants to call herself a postmodern Christian then that's really fine with me. The reason that I get hesitant about using the word is because I don't think that the Church should be postmodern. I don't think it should be modern either. It's probably some of both and I should just get over it. But for the record I think the Church should be the Church.
What does a postmodern Christian (okay, I'm caving, fine) look like? Well all I can really do is what Jon and Tara did and tell you about why I'm still a Christian.
I believe in God. The word believe is the key there. I honestly and truly don't know that there is a god in the universe, and I honestly and truly don't know what he/she/it is like. I believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I mean this as an attempt at humility (you all know how good I am at that). I'm happy to dialogue with anyone about anything related to faith. If you're an athiest, if you're a Muslim, if you're Hindu, I may disagree with you about God and how the universe works, but I don't think you're stupid or ridiculous or evil or any of that. I do think you're wrong, but since you think I'm wrong too let's not get too pissed off about that okay?
I believe very deeply in the importance of Christian community. As a great man once said, if nobody's going with you, you're probably going the wrong way. I don't believe that Christianity can be just a personal religion that you live out in your heart or even in your actions. We all need specific, and preferably local, communities in which to believe. Why is a community so important? Because I need to be told when I'm acting or thinking in a silly way or a way that's inconsistent with who Christ is. I do it all the time. Like Tara I'm a disaster a lot of the time. I do and say stupid, immoral, unkind, unChristian things all the time. If I was all on my own how would I know that's what was happening? Also, and this is at the heart of how the Bible works for me, how do I know that the way that I understand Christianity is the right way? I need other people who call themselves Christians to tell me how they understand Christianity and Christ. I need Colleen and Lola and Dustin and Chris and everyone else here, and my wife and my family, and all the people in my church (if we ever find one in Hamilton, sheesh), and all of my friends at school, and all of the dead people who wrote the books I read. I need, to put it more briefly, a "great cloud of witnesses." How the hell else am I going to keep running?
One of the important things that I think underlies Trev's question (tell me if I'm wrong here) is another question, How is postmodern Christianity different from modern Christianity? Well there are some differences of emphasis I think.
First, I'm not all that concerned in creating a subculture that looks totally different from the rest of the world. I drink wine and beer and scotch (and really anything except Gin...ick! who can stand that crap?!), I watch R rated movies, I watch television, I read non-Christian books, I do all sorts of things that would have had my youthgroup laying hands on me in the 90s. Is this all just me selling out and conforming to the culture around me? I hope not. When I drink a glass of wine I honestly believe that my enjoyment of it, my love of the flavour and the company sharing the bottle with me, honours God. When I watch Pan's Labyrinth yes I see terrible violence, but I also try to reflect on the story and what it means in relation to my understanding of God. When I read Eco's Name of the Rose I'm reading a book by a man who doesn't believe in my faith, but his insights about Medieval Christianity, and about exclusion, and about the nature of evil are all powerful and meaningful and important critiques that I need to hear. I absolutely refuse to shut myself away from the culture in which I live. In fact I go so far as to completely remove myself from Christian sub-culture. This is maybe a little reactionary, and probably as much about snobery as anything, but it's also at least partly about being in the world consciously and intentionally.
Having said all of this, there are things that I think are uniquely Christian. I read my Bible. I read books that are specifically about Christian theology. I started this blog, and I maintain (rather haphazardly) my own blog in order to encourage discussion about Christianity and what it means to be Christian. I've been baptized and I've baptized other people. I take communion and I've served it. I pray, though like Jon I'm not always sure how and I've tried lots of ways. I try to find ways to worship Jesus Christ. These are some of the things that make me and other Christians "not of" the world. The framework of all of these things might be cultural. I speak English, I baptize in a very Western way, I take communion in a very Western way, I generally worship using tools like modern music or even reflective techniques. The content, however, is unique. I proclaim, and read about, and think about, and pray to, and worship, and submit myself to Father, Son and Spirit.
Also, to reiterate something Jon said, there are all sorts of things that are integral to the working out of my faith that look like capitulation to culture but are really Christian things. I try very hard to be environmentally conscious and careful. I think I'm a steward of the world by the grace of God, and I'd like to try to do a good job. I try very hard to be just in my politics and my economics. Like Jon said, this is Isaiah and Micah and the Sermon on the Mount more than anything else.
A lot of what this question is about is boundary markers. Who's in and who's out. This has always been the most difficult question about Christianity for me. I'm sure there are boundary markers. I'm sure there is a point when a person just isn't a Christian anymore. The difference between me now and me 10 years ago is that I'm less willing now to try to define those markers. I believe very deeply in God's statement "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and compassion on whom I will have compassion." But there still have to be boundary markers of some kind. Dustin and I were talking about this over coffee yesterday. If a church flattens itself out so much that you can't tell why it's different from the rest of the world anymore, then what the hell is the point of that church?
Can anyone help me with this?
Jon and Chris might be right that I'm oversimplifying when I say postmodernism and Christianity are like oil and water. If Tara wants to call herself a postmodern Christian then that's really fine with me. The reason that I get hesitant about using the word is because I don't think that the Church should be postmodern. I don't think it should be modern either. It's probably some of both and I should just get over it. But for the record I think the Church should be the Church.
What does a postmodern Christian (okay, I'm caving, fine) look like? Well all I can really do is what Jon and Tara did and tell you about why I'm still a Christian.
I believe in God. The word believe is the key there. I honestly and truly don't know that there is a god in the universe, and I honestly and truly don't know what he/she/it is like. I believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I mean this as an attempt at humility (you all know how good I am at that). I'm happy to dialogue with anyone about anything related to faith. If you're an athiest, if you're a Muslim, if you're Hindu, I may disagree with you about God and how the universe works, but I don't think you're stupid or ridiculous or evil or any of that. I do think you're wrong, but since you think I'm wrong too let's not get too pissed off about that okay?
I believe very deeply in the importance of Christian community. As a great man once said, if nobody's going with you, you're probably going the wrong way. I don't believe that Christianity can be just a personal religion that you live out in your heart or even in your actions. We all need specific, and preferably local, communities in which to believe. Why is a community so important? Because I need to be told when I'm acting or thinking in a silly way or a way that's inconsistent with who Christ is. I do it all the time. Like Tara I'm a disaster a lot of the time. I do and say stupid, immoral, unkind, unChristian things all the time. If I was all on my own how would I know that's what was happening? Also, and this is at the heart of how the Bible works for me, how do I know that the way that I understand Christianity is the right way? I need other people who call themselves Christians to tell me how they understand Christianity and Christ. I need Colleen and Lola and Dustin and Chris and everyone else here, and my wife and my family, and all the people in my church (if we ever find one in Hamilton, sheesh), and all of my friends at school, and all of the dead people who wrote the books I read. I need, to put it more briefly, a "great cloud of witnesses." How the hell else am I going to keep running?
One of the important things that I think underlies Trev's question (tell me if I'm wrong here) is another question, How is postmodern Christianity different from modern Christianity? Well there are some differences of emphasis I think.
First, I'm not all that concerned in creating a subculture that looks totally different from the rest of the world. I drink wine and beer and scotch (and really anything except Gin...ick! who can stand that crap?!), I watch R rated movies, I watch television, I read non-Christian books, I do all sorts of things that would have had my youthgroup laying hands on me in the 90s. Is this all just me selling out and conforming to the culture around me? I hope not. When I drink a glass of wine I honestly believe that my enjoyment of it, my love of the flavour and the company sharing the bottle with me, honours God. When I watch Pan's Labyrinth yes I see terrible violence, but I also try to reflect on the story and what it means in relation to my understanding of God. When I read Eco's Name of the Rose I'm reading a book by a man who doesn't believe in my faith, but his insights about Medieval Christianity, and about exclusion, and about the nature of evil are all powerful and meaningful and important critiques that I need to hear. I absolutely refuse to shut myself away from the culture in which I live. In fact I go so far as to completely remove myself from Christian sub-culture. This is maybe a little reactionary, and probably as much about snobery as anything, but it's also at least partly about being in the world consciously and intentionally.
Having said all of this, there are things that I think are uniquely Christian. I read my Bible. I read books that are specifically about Christian theology. I started this blog, and I maintain (rather haphazardly) my own blog in order to encourage discussion about Christianity and what it means to be Christian. I've been baptized and I've baptized other people. I take communion and I've served it. I pray, though like Jon I'm not always sure how and I've tried lots of ways. I try to find ways to worship Jesus Christ. These are some of the things that make me and other Christians "not of" the world. The framework of all of these things might be cultural. I speak English, I baptize in a very Western way, I take communion in a very Western way, I generally worship using tools like modern music or even reflective techniques. The content, however, is unique. I proclaim, and read about, and think about, and pray to, and worship, and submit myself to Father, Son and Spirit.
Also, to reiterate something Jon said, there are all sorts of things that are integral to the working out of my faith that look like capitulation to culture but are really Christian things. I try very hard to be environmentally conscious and careful. I think I'm a steward of the world by the grace of God, and I'd like to try to do a good job. I try very hard to be just in my politics and my economics. Like Jon said, this is Isaiah and Micah and the Sermon on the Mount more than anything else.
A lot of what this question is about is boundary markers. Who's in and who's out. This has always been the most difficult question about Christianity for me. I'm sure there are boundary markers. I'm sure there is a point when a person just isn't a Christian anymore. The difference between me now and me 10 years ago is that I'm less willing now to try to define those markers. I believe very deeply in God's statement "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and compassion on whom I will have compassion." But there still have to be boundary markers of some kind. Dustin and I were talking about this over coffee yesterday. If a church flattens itself out so much that you can't tell why it's different from the rest of the world anymore, then what the hell is the point of that church?
Can anyone help me with this?
6 comments:
Well said Colin, Well said.
I love what has been said in the last few posts about the church. For all her faults (of which I am one), she is still necessary and good. I think the call of the church today is to be so alive, passionate and fierce with reality that it is a huge impact on the world around us through our actions and our hearts.
The danger with any new attempts is they all seem to move towards lack of impact in the world, whether it be in the old style, where we form our own sub-culture, or the new style, where we work so hard to be cutting edge that we end up the same as everyone else and we loose anything to give the rest of the world. The difference needed is in God's direction of that community, both individually and corporately, that gives a life to things that far excedes anything else the world has to offer, because it isn't from us. I have seen some misses from congregations in both ways, and thats why as a community (even web based ones like this), it is so important that we come together like you said to help each other find the way.
Boundary markers- that is so true Colin and I really had never thought about it quite like that!
and "if a church flattens itself out so much that you can't tell why it's different from the rest of the world anymore, then what the hell is the point of that church?"
- that SO resonates with me. what the hell is the point indeed?!!!
Hm.
Good thoughts... and stuff I definitely need to think about.
I've recently been having a bit of a conflict with my mom which comes down this idea of boundaries. I've been feeling like she's disappointed in the spiritual direction that i have been taking, and I have been very frustrated alot as I've seen my relationship with her changing as a result of that disappointment. I actually phoned her the other day to confront the issue a bit and basically to tell her that I AM STILL A CHRISTIAN. I feel like she thinks I'm not and wanted to clarify. Well, her response was to say ... "you say that, but my question to you then, would be 'what is so wrong with our church then?'" To her the boundary of being a Christian is very much related to one's involvement in the church... which is true to some extent, but maybe not necessarily involvement in one's local Alliance church!!
Anyway, I agree completely that it is a choice to believe. And I'm coming back around to agreeing that we do definitely need the community. And I'm thankful for the communities that I'm currently a part of that are accepting me and encouraging me as a I walk back towards having a deeper faith in God again. And yes, this blog is one of those communities.
Another point you made that I will be giving more thought to is the idea that there are things we do to make us distinctly Christian in today's times. I've strayed very far to the opposite side - living very much within my current culture, but am realizing that I'm missing the balance.
A good friend of mine (Lola!) has a great analogy that I love - she says that the Christian walk is like a highway - you've got the liberal Christianity on one side of the highway and conservative Christianity on the other side. And what we need to do is stay on the highway and not go into either ditch... we need the balance.
Sorry, Lola, you could have put that much more eloquently than I did! But you all get the point. And I've been missing the point in my own life.
Again, thanks for this post. I'm gonna mull it over today and wait till later to read the next one. :o)
Good stuff Colin.
You said: "Why is a community so important? Because I need to be told when I'm acting or thinking in a silly way or a way that's inconsistent with who Christ is."
My question: Is community there to enable a more Christ-like self or is it the other way around? In other words, is the community there for me or am I there for the community?
Another way to put it: What is redemption about? Is it the creation of individuals who image God or is it a group of people who image God in Christ?
Though we're not talking about one or the other as if there can only be one, I think it is an important distinction. My questions should indicate that lately I'm leaning toward the latter. And hopefully the practical ramifications are fairly self-evident . . .
As for boundary markers I think the answer is somewhere between 1 Corinthians 10, Romans 14, Matthew 5:23-24, and Matthew 18. The first two have to do with benefitting others but not passing judgment. The latter two have to do with making things right with others and confronting sin in love in a relentless spirit not of judgment but of forgiveness.
I had to laugh at your comment "I do all sorts of things that would have had my youthgroup laying hands on me in the 90s". So very true for both of us! And yet in a small town church, we are extrememly limited in what is and is not "acceptable". With a husband that works shift work and is often unavailable to attend on Sundays (not that he is missing much anyways since the "sermon" may or may not contain any scripture) it is frowned upon.
I think that God wants us to stop being those stuck up church snobs who frown upon others who want to try communion differently (aka dipping bread into the wine...true story taking place here this week), or try singing a different song, or watching a certain movie, or reading a popular book. Who really cares? I highly think that God is concerned with our daily activities, as long as we are finding Him in the midst of it.
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